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Bartonella Like Organisms (BLO): Consideration, Signs and Symptoms

Wayne Anderson ND image

Wayne Anderson ND combines Functional and Integrative Medicine disciplines with the best of conventional medicine.

By Wayne Anderson, ND

Copyright c 2010 Dr. Wayne Anderson

Disclaimer: Given the fact that Borrelia and the co-infections all have the same mechanisms of action there is significant symptom overlap. These symptom pictures are meant to be used as templates that will vary given the individual patient’s co-morbidities, strengths and weakness.

Overview:

Differentiating Bartonella Like Organisms (BLO) from Babesia Like Organisms (BabLO) is like looking at shades of gray. They have many of the same symptoms with different intensities. The main difference between the two is that BLO will be more painful. It likes the joints and periarticular areas. The pain migrates, affecting different joints at different times. It is usually unilateral and gets mistaken for arthritis in its intensity. Keynote for BLO is sensations of pain in the soles of the feet. Headaches are a defining symptom of BLO, as BabLO usually has more head pressure. BLO is not as smart as BabLO, it stays more superficial, affecting skin, and mucous membranes. The skin can have sores like acne, stria, subcutaneous nodules. The skin can have weird sensations like crawling (formication), burning, or other types of neuropathy. The BLO patient will have low grade sore throat, and gastritis. BLO lives in the liver and spleen. It can cause mildly elevated liver enzymes and lymph node swelling. It can cause all the same cognitive, memory, and mood problems as BabLO but not as extreme. When BLO and BabLO come together these symptoms are additive making for a very impaired patient. BLO patients are more hot, and can have low grade fevers, as BabLO tend to chill.

Bartonella

General BLO Considerations:
  • Most common co-infection (Dr. Burrascano believes it is more common then Borrelia).
  • At this time there are 26 subspecies of Bartonella (Henselae and Cinnuate).
  • Can be spread by a tick bite, cat scratch, and flea bites.
  • Many cats are infected along with other small mammals and birds.
  • Can have acute and/or chronic patterns.
  • Remarkably common in patients with chronic neurological symptoms, especially when dominated by pain.
  • Fatigue like illness, but “Wired-Tired” (often mistaken for CFIDS).
  • All forms of headache: migraine, tension, cluster, mixed type.
  • Joint pains, extremities, large and small (knee, shoulders, hands, etc).
  • Pain will be wandering, joint to joint, switching side to side, and seldom bilateral.
  • Can settle in previously injured joints making them worse and more chronic.
  • Can swell a joint (especially knee, fingers).http://www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/wp-admin/post-new.php
  • Can be mistaken for fibromyalgia.
  • More likely to affect surface membranes, causing skin problems, stria, nodular lumps under skin, etc. (Probably involved in Morgellons Disease)
  • Gastritis (In the absence of H. Pylori must be next diagnostic consideration).
  • Settles in the liver, will compromise liver function, episodically elevating liver enzymes. When liver enzymes are midly elevated (5-20 on ALT and/or AST) without an explanation think Bartonella.
  • Lymphadenopathy, often neck but can be in any node depending on individual structure compromise.
  • Settles in the spleen, often subtle splenomegaly.

 

Chronic BLO Symptoms Organized by Organ Systems:

Chief Complaint: Pain, joint pain and/or headache.

Pain:

  • Joint pain, knees, can be large or small joints. Usually wandering, unilateral, can be swollen, seldom hot.
  • Often periarticular.
  • Minor joint trauma takes forever to heal.

Head:

  • Headache, can be severe, ice pick, in and around eyes, migraine. Unlike Babesia which has more pressure, weird sensations.
  • Same cognitive, memory, emotion symptoms as Babesia but milder, not as disabling.
  • These encepalopathic symptom differences between Babesia and Bartonella are an attempt at distinguishing between subtle shades of gray.

Lymphatic System:

Eyes:

  • Conjunctivitis, pain in and around eyes, intermittent blurred vision.

Throat:

  • Mild sore throat, worse with stress, upon waking, Feels like “just about to get sore throat”.

Gastrointestinal:

  • Gastritis, dysmotility, worse esophagus, occasional difficulty swallowing.

Liver/Gallbladder:

  • Mild hepatomegaly, mildly elevated liver enzymes,
  • Gallbladder dysfunction, GERD.
  • Right Upper Quadrant (RUQ) pain.

Skin:

  • Rashes, papular, stria, abdominal and upper legs, acne, crusty scalp.
  • Subcutaneous nodules, can be tender.
  • Crawling, burning ,multiple sensations.

Feet:

  • Sensitive, painful soles, worse getting out of bed and standing, usually bilateral.
  • Painful bones of the feet, foot and ankle can both be painful, unlike the soles, is usually unilateral.

Possible Physical Exam Findings:

  • Lymph node swelling
  • Stria: abdomen, upper legs
  • Papulovesicular rash
  • Fever
  • Photophobia
  • Fasiculations
  • Hepatomegaly
  • Mild Splenomegaly
  • Gastritis
  • Subcutaneous nodules

Possible Acute BLO Symptomatic Presentation:

  • Can be asymptomatic between acute episodes.
  • “Like the worse flu I ever had!” Can be mistaken for Mono.
  • Fever, chills, some sweats.
  • Swollen lymph glands, sore throat.
  • Hepatosplenomegaly (can cause mildly elevated liver enzymes).
  • Significant body aches, joint pains.
  • Headache along with other sub clinical encephalopathy symptoms.
  • Can last for weeks to months.
  • Can have a relapsing acute form for months.
  • Can have long dormant stages that are asymptomatic

Coming up:

A-FNG Part Two: Chronic Mold Infections and Lyme Disease

A curious and dedicated clinician, Dr. Anderson is committed to the ongoing process of learning and teaching. In addition to his clinical practice at Gordon Medical, Dr. Anderson maintained his initial focus on teaching. For over 20 years he taught medical students at Touro Osteopathic Medical School, and supervised residents from Sutter Hospital and interns from the Physician Assistant programs in the clinic setting. He is also a popular speaker on the topics of Lyme disease and neurotoxin illness.

Comments

  1. Anthony Murawski says:

    Hi there,

    Frye labs is not diagnosing Bartonella-like organisms. For years, they had knowingly misnamed the organism they were detecting as hemobartonella, which is a form of Mycoplasma, and doesn’t resemble true Bartonella. Mycoplasmas are treated with different antimicrobials than Bartonellas. In the audio recording of Dr. Fry’s presentation at the 2010 ILADS meeting, at about 8 min & 20 sec into his presentation, he states: “There are a number of references in the literature about adherent bacteria, bartonellosis. Actually, I was talking to Ed Weissberg (?) the weekend before last in Philadelphia; he agrees with the term that is actually in the literature now, eperythrozoons or epierythrocytic bacteria. We’re still using hemobartonella as a term. That’s probably not correct, based off molecular data.”

    Sincerely,
    Anthony M.
    Seattle, WA

    • Dr. James Schaller asked to have this reply added to the article and Anthony Muawski’s comment. Dr. Schaller’s reply is to ideas and not to individuals:

      SCHALLER, MD REPLY TO RECENT POST ON FRY LABS
      AND HOW TO READ HEMOBARTONELLA VS. MYCOPLASMA RESULTS FOR TREATMENT.

      I think the proposed symptoms of Bartonella on various sites and in misc. books are OK as a starting point.

      Our Checklists of Bartonella, Babesia andLyme are from review of English literature at the time of CHECKLIST publication. The trouble is you need years to read and years to split out one infection from another, which never exists except in pure Bartonella. Lyme alone never exists.

      I have been involved closely with the emergence of Dr Fry’s lab and I deeply appreciate his immense investment, and profound help in being one of the top sources as we were trying to determine what actually killed Babesia before March 2007, and Bartonella since 2005 or 2006.

      Since Dr Ed Breitschwerdt and others around the world got involved, we stand by everything published over seven years ago and more recently regarding the reading of these Fry smears and the REQUIRED FULL MASTERY OF THE BODY CHEMICAL CHANGES CAUSED BY THE INFECTION IN QUESTION. I will call it Bartonella for now, and I DO KNOW what it effects and does not effect, based on full time reading, and misc. treatment failures–my full practice–explored very intensely over the past seven years.

      Any thing that says Fry “knowingly” misrepresented something intentionally is not the lab I know and an error. They knowingly have made massive sacrifices for me, and helped me as an indispensable help.

      We do not agree on many things, but that is of no import. The only images book on Babesia and Bartonella is mine, and despite some artifact image errors, and includes very advanced detection samples also added to Babesia 2009 Update. Mycoplasma treatment in traditional and LLMD medicine overlaps, but I do not agree with all of it.

      Dr. Steven Fry talk may have pre-dated Ed Breitschwerdt’s explosion of data that was partly sent to Dr. Fry by me that confirmed things he wanted more confirmation on. Ed had found areas of support for some of Stephen’s concerns which like all labs include very careful wording.

      Dr. Fry and Dr. Ellis are very close watchers of the published explosion of new Babesia and Bartonella species and certainly strains.

      They DO have a high degree of interest in classification which I see as interesting BUT BASED ON MY INHERITED FAILURE PRACTICE DOES NOT ALTER MY POSITIONS IF WE CALL IT AXAX40, or Bartonella or 123GGGeperythrozoons.

      I feel as a clinician with 12 TBD books, two papers under former editor of JAMA, a former editor of 40 top journals, and other materials, and a biofilm treatment and Babesia 7th text on treatments coming, is I care less about the name and care MORE what kills it.

      If it was a very new organism without tens of thousands of positives, the classification might offer a starting point, now it does not.

      And mycoplasma treatment and issues is old news. It is always worth discussing, and I strongly agree we are not done with mycoplasma for the rest of our lives.

      The poster is a smart genius lawyer with a very high interest and passion for medical science who I respect and like. He reads more than most people who treat these conditions. We may disagree on some topics, but who cares?. We both want better care. So we all agree on the problem and share the same goal.

      James Schaller, MD, MAR
      http://www.personalconsult.com
      Free Books on Site that Expand on This Topic

      • Anthony Murawski says:

        Hi Susan & James,

        I should have emphasized that I’m not impugning character or questioning motives; I just don’t understand why it continued to be called possible hemobartonella, since it must have been obvious that many Lyme docs are under the false impression that hemobartonella is a true form of bartonella. For instance, my treatment notes from March 6, 2009 state “do Frye lab oil emmersion (sic) microscopy for bartonella” and also on March 19, 2009L “regarding treating for bart of babx first, see what fry labs indicates to guide decision,” and “to see if still has bartonella activity. do Frye Lab oil emmersion microscopy for bartonella.” A subsequent treatment note states “Fry lab slide shows rare forms consistent with BLO or mycoplasam [i.e., mycoplasma]” and “consider possible IV avelox to get better treatment of blo.” My slide revealed what appears to be one adherent bacterium.

        I listened to the recording of Dr. Fry’s presentation at the 2010 ILADS meeting, so I’m quoting him directly. I believe he had good reason to know that the organism he is finding is not Bartonella-like in any meaningful sense, except that he initially thought it might be “hemobartonella,” which had already been reclassified as mycoplasma.

        I think the term BLO causes a lot of confusion. If it’s a mycoplasma, it’s not at all bartonella-like except in a very superficial way (e.g., adherence to red blood cell, endothelial cell, etc.) prior to penetration, but otherwise far different, e.g., as you know, mycoplasmas do not have a cell wall). If it’s a bartonella, then it’s a bartonella. So it’s either a mycoplasma or a bartonella or something else, e.g., a protozoan. I laud Fry labs for doing cutting edge research. However, since the lab didn’t know what it was finding, I think they should have been very explicit about that, instead of sending out the results saying the findings were suggestive of hemobartonella or mycoplasma (inaccurately suggesting that hemobartonella is not a form of mycoplasma) to Lyme docs, knowing those docs use the results without adequate understanding to guide their treatment decisions. I see that they have changed their practices and are now using a better approach. The Fry Labs website currently contains the following explanation (http://www.frylabs.com/faqs.php):

        1. What are hemobartonella or epierythrozoans?
        Many of our tests are direct microscopic examinations of blood smears. The term hemobartonella and, often used interchangeably, epierythrozoan is a physical description of the behavior of the organism(s) observed. Except in a few cases it is generally not possible to determine the species of bacteria observed by microscopy. Upon microscopic examination bacteria generally appear as spherical, rod, or slightly irregular shaped cells that may be differentiated from ‘artifact’ by the use of selective stains. Organisms that adhere to the surfaces of cells have the physical characteristics consistent with epierythrozoan, or red blood cell adhering, bacteria. It is now known that Bartonella spp. are not the only organism to display this characteristic and the out-dated term “hemobartonella” had been previously used as well. In summary, as new species of blood-borne bacteria have been discovered it is apparent that organisms identified by microscopy that are found inside or adherent to red blood cells are not necessarily Bartonella spp. and as such the general terms ‘hemobartonella’ and ‘epierythrozoan’ are used to describe the features of the organism that is observed. Fry Laboratories offers targeted molecular and serologic testing to determine if the detected organisms are of the Bartonella genus or are another related species.

        I should have written “Fry labs was not diagnosing Bartonella….” Per the above, it looks now that they offer serologic and molecular testing determine if the detected organisms are of the Bartonella genus or are another related species. In their FAQs re. determining presence of Bartonella spp., Fry labs states:

        Fry Laboratories has developed and use several tests to assist in the detection of Bartonella spp. and related organisms. A common method is by the utilization of immunoflorescent microscopy involving IgG and IgM antibodies. This test is a qualitative measure of the hosts immune reaction to the pathogen. The second method is direct microscopic visualization by special stains on a thin blood smear. Fry Laboratories has heavily invested in producing high quality proprietary staining technologies that aid in detection of rare or difficult to detect organisms such as Bartonella spp. Typically if an infection by Bartonella spp. is present they may be found adherent to the outside of red blood cells, but in some cases may be inside of the cells as well. Lastly, molecular diagnostics may aid in the detection of Bartonella spp. by detecting the presence of the organisms DNA in a patient sample

        I have no idea what the sensitivity or specificity of their test methods are.

        Per above, the Fry labs site states that “[t]ypically if an infection by Bartonella spp. is present they may be found adherent to the outside of red blood cells, but in some cases may be inside of the cells as well.” To make this statement accurately, you would have to have high sensitivity and specificity for detection of true Bartonella spp. I haven’t researched it in depth, and could well be wrong, but it’s my understanding that you can’t make broad generalizations concerning cell penetration about even a single genus of Bartonella. According to one in vitro study under static conditions,

        B. henselae 87-66 entered HEp-2 cells nearly 100 times more frequently than its isogenic strain, B. henselae ATCC 49793. B. henselae 87-66 entered HEp-2 cells several hundred to several thousand times more avidly than B. quintana VR-358 and E. coli HB101. Thin-section TEM demonstrated that after 2 h in association with HEp-2 cells, large numbers of B. henselae 87-66 cells entered the cell and existed in large vacuoles (Fig. 2). Entry of the bacteria was noted to occur by single cells or via large clumps. Large numbers of B. henselae cells could also be seen associating with the cell membrane (Fig. 3). B. henselae ATCC 49793 rarely was seen entering the cells. B. quintana and E. coli HB101 did not enter HEp-2 cells (data not shown). B. henselae 87-66 which underwent multiple passages in our laboratory also became more mucoid with less ability to adhere to and invade HEp-2 cells [1].

        According to another in vitro study that examined adherence under both static and dynamic conditions [2],

        We assayed the TAA-dependent adhesion of B. henselae, B. quintana, and Y. enterocolitica to endothelial cells (HUVECs) in static and dynamic infection models. The MOI [multiplicity of infection] of 100 used in static infection assays was increased in the dynamic flow assays to 1,000, which takes into account the decreased bacterial attachment under shear stress. Furthermore, the dynamic infection model was adapted to flow conditions and shear rates of 0.125 dyne/cm2, which prevail in small capillary vessels. Samples were fixed, endothelial cells were stained by TRITC-phalloidin, and bacterial DNA and cellular nuclei were stained by DAPI. Quantification of adherent bacteria was performed by using CLSM [confocal laser scanning microscopy] and counting cell-adherent bacteria for 100 cells. The static infection assays revealed significant differences between B. henselae BadA+ and BadA− strains or B. quintana Vomp+ and Vomp− strains. In contrast, YadA expression failed to influence significantly endothelial cell adherence of Y. enterocolitica under static conditions.

        1. Batterman HJ, Peek JA, Loutit JS, Falkow S, Tompkins LS. Bartonella henselae and Bartonella quintana adherence to and entry into cultured human epithelial cells. Infect Immun. 1995 Nov;63(11). Full article available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC173653/
        2. Niklas F. Müller,1 Patrick O. Kaiser,2 Dirk Linke et al. Trimeric autotransporter adhesin-dependent adherence of Bartonella henselae, Bartonella quintana, and Yersinia enterocolitica to matrix components and endothelial cells under static and dynamic flow conditions. Infect Immun. 2011 Jul;79(7):2544-53. Full article available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3191982/

        All the best,
        Anthony

        p.s. I’m certainly no genius. I think anyone who is reasonably intelligent can educate him/herself in the area of medicine or law. And there are plenty of not-so-smart doctors and lawyers out there. But I appreciate the kind sentiments, and also respect you very much.

        Anthony Murawski
        Seattle, WA

        • Anthony, in regards to your own treatment, I think that needs to be discussed with your practitioner. I can’t comment on that. Dr. Anderson may choose to comment on your’s or Dr. Schaller’s statements. I will make sure that he is aware of them. If you check, you will see that Dr. Anderson’s paper on BLO was written in 2010. The illustration from Frye comes from the same year. I know that Dr. Anderson is continually refining his thoughts, as well as keeping up with research, so he may define things differently now, as well. Regardless, thanks to both you and Dr. Schaller for taking the time to comment and bring up to date information into the ring. Things are changing fast in the medical field, so anything written is likely to become dated quickly!

  2. schaller researcher says:

    Dear Friends,

    I spent a good deal of time writing a reply, and lost it because of never using wordpress before and no time to blog.

    I will only say the top error of my friend above is he is a genius, and an immensely gifted lawyer and on this I am not moving. Period. And yes, I am smiling.

    On adhesion, the Bartonella can enter red cells and be very dangerous, enter a little and not enter much at all. It depends on all the species and strains. We will not touch on what goes on at blood vessel walls.

    I am very thankful for Drs. Fry and Sapi who made me see I must write a text on biofilms–I did not realize it was such an issue to others.

    And unlike the 1500.00 in books I was happy to spend with no resentment–do not buy what you cannot do cheerfully–that is what inter library loan is for–having used it for crates of books…

    The treatments for biofilms in these books and other places were limited.

    Current suggestions may help a dash–like drop clots. But enzymes are like door keys and Lyme’s biofilm–if mature–is very serious. Dr. Eva Sapi, the god of advanced research in TBD, will no doubt be using her massive range of top lab technology tools, to add to our knowledge as able on biofilms and was kind enough to share some basics.

    The issue of lab wording is that it must be considered that the lab is under the KGB eye of misc. licensing groups who do not really care as much as the lab at times. So wording has to be the wording used the first time you ask someone to date–for me an utter horror. :)

    And the lab scientist per KUHN has biases and comes from misc. areas into this type of study–beliefs, preferences and goals. And the priorities and preferences of the lab may be due to cost of a test or sensitivity which may not be a priority to the clinician.

    So physicians need to really know the tests, need to know the issues in licensing, know the ideology of the lab that impacts wording, and how much comfort they have in openness to other options. In classification, Dr. Fry seems to want to stay ahead of the curve. One cannot also assume that the world of diagnosis is done by the lab. Indeed, at this point, labs only confirm what I feel is going on. I am looking for the trouble done by presence over 5-50 years.

    HUGS TO YOU ANTHONY, AND THANKS FOR SO MANY LAW LESSONS,

    AND THANKS TO SUE FRIEDL FOR POSTING FOR ME EARLIER.

    DR J

    Dr. James Schaller MD, MAR
    http://WWW.PERSONALCONSULT.COM

    ,

    • Anthony Murawski says:

      Hi James,

      Thanks for the very kind email.

      I think you are one of the handful of practitoners out there who really try to get an in-depth understanding of these issues, instead of just accepting ILADS-oriented interpretations as an article of faith. My first LLMD still treats the Burrascano Guidelines like the King James Bible — and he is not exceptional in this regard. I think many ILADS-oriented practitioners accept conclusions from similarly-oriented researchers/organisations as an article of faith in the same way that IDSA-oriented doctors do. Bit as we know, ILADS is attempting to help Lyme patients, and the IDSA is attempting to make Lyme disease appear easily diagnosed and treated so they can roll out a dangerous and very profitable vaccine again. Of course, the Burrascano guidelines and ILADS guidelines can be useful, but they are not a substitute for in-depth (though obviously limited) knowledge.

      My guess is that Dr, Fry simply didn’t realize that hemobartonella had been reclassified as a mycoplasma several years before he began his work in this area. I don’t assume he had any kind of questionable motives. I wrote “knowingly” because it didn’t occur to me that someone running a specialty lab would have been unaware of the reclasification. But nobody is perfect. I’m sure that in the future I’ll look at some factual statements I’ve made and will shake my head in disbelief.

      Love and good wishes to you, Dr. Fry, Susan, and Dr. Anderson.

      –Anthony
      Independent researcher
      Seattle, WA

      • schaller researcher says:

        Dear Anthony My Dear Friend and Law Teacher,

        While we know the Dr Joe B is the Father of Modern Lyme and the Whipping Man for the movement in the medical board world, he strikes me as also loving to learn new things. Evan if his guideline goal is weaning folks into learning tick infection care without intimidation. And he certainly knows a guideline is a starting place, not a literal BIBLE. He was encouraging me only last week on an infection I write on in which I hold another opinion or at least a longer position in word count, and he is a top cheer leader for any advance.

        While he and all of us have been glad to see REAL MOVEMENT IN NEW INFO, my goal is why do people not feel better for many years. That is it. We have opted full-time reading/research at 40 hours a week and 19 hours of care a week, Other smart and caring healers try to add tick infections to practice, and that is OK at screening if you know what you are doing.

        While I still feel it is not mycoplasma, you can call it a symbiotic orange if you want. I feel we know what kills it and what does not. And not done with it.

        IYou make a very important point: T IS A SHAME THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO BE THEIR OWN DOC IN THIS AREA EVEN WHEN SEEING SOMEONE WHO FEELS LYME LITERATE.

        What about Myco-literate? Bartonella literate, Babesia -literate, hormone literate? Inflammatory system literate? Critical nutrient shift literate, etc.

        Hugs Brother,

        James

        http://WWW.personalconsult.com
        DR JAMES SCHALLER MD

        • Anthony Murawski says:

          You (James) know this already, but I want to be sure it’s clear to everyone else… When I say that some practitioners treat the Burrascano Guidelines like the King James Bible, I’m not being critical of Joe Burrascano. I think his guidelines are a good starting point. And when I say that I believe that the term BLO causes confusion, there’s nothing personal it it. Everything I’ve heard about Joe Burrascano tells me he is an exceptional person who has dedicated his life to helping others.

          Stephen Fry candidly states that he does not know what the organism on a blood smear is until it has been further analyzed. We know that microscopy in this power range doesn’t provide enough information to identify the organism. He himself states that he is finding different organisms with the smears. The microscopy he is performing is a first step in identifying an organism.Unfortunately, most clinicians weren’t aware of this for the first few years that the smears were being performed.I don’t know roughly what percentage of clinicians are aware of this by now. But Stephen Fry has made it clear in the FAQs on his website.

          It’s understandable why a clinician would have thought hemobartonella was true bartonella, based on the description of the organism that had been used in the microscopy report. For what it’s worth, I laud Wayne for his open-mindedness and willingness to revisit his earlier conclusions. It’s rare for doctors to do this. If a doctor is willing to publicly revise his/her prior conclusions, that’s a very exceptional doctor. Every doctor and every human being at least occasionally draws inaccurate conclusions. But few are willing to acknowledge it and learn from it when it occurs. For me, one of the biggest red flags is when a doctor, lawyer, etc. isn’t aware that there is a lot he/she/we don’t know.

          –Anthony

      • schaller researcher says:

        Dear Brother Anthony, Doctor of Jurisprudence,

        I think Stephen Fry is very smart, and the way he discusses topics to doctors and other PhD microbiologists is complex and exploratory.

        My impression is he came into tick infections from other areas of pathology, and I could be wrong, but I think he has always been aware of mycoplasma. I think he would rather be broad and inclusive than authoritarian.

        Stephen and Dr Ellis have been fantastic to me and my pateints so I try to save up questions for serious sets. But I would query lab directly on the NON-BLUE BIOFILM SLIDE, THE ONE IN USE with the patented stain from the lab start.

        We do not always agree, and we do not need to agree 100% to be friends, but I always learn, and I hope he feels something in the exchange–at least the name of a good after shave.

        *****”My guess is that Dr, Fry simply didn’t realize that hemobartonella had been reclassified as a mycoplasma several years before he began his work in this area.”*****THIS REASON WOULD SURPRISE ME, but I am wrong at least once a decade. I am due :)

        Call them. Tell them you are calling on my behalf from my psyche ward bed–they will believe that and should result in a fast pick up.

        Hugs my brilliant friend,

        James.

        James Schaller MD,MAR
        http://www.personalconsult.com

  3. Of course you are both right, its not about lists or names, and keep it coming because we need it all. And I think the best I can do is focus on the patient who is sitting in front of me in the moment. Gathering about this patient all I need get a feeling about them specifically. And from this compare their symptoms patterns to the 100’s of other patient that have had similar symptoms groupings. And having challenged these patients with as specific an antimicrobial for that pathogen as possible, knowing the organisms and provoking agents have tremendous overlap. And in the end if the symptoms change in a predictable way I might hazard that I made a decent guess of an assessment.

    We need everyone’s list, books, articles, and research to keep stirring this strange brew. This soup of things named, things in the same ballpark and the ones we haven’t yet imagined (those are the tricky ones)!

    I believe we are often treating different populations, by this I am thinking more about our different patients over the different bugs. I believe there are more variations in our patients than any simple pathogenic organism could keep up with.
    But we have to start somewhere and in 2010 that article reflects what I was believing about my observations. This I am sure we all agree is an ever changing process.

    Thank for the discussion, James and Anthony. and Susan for keeping it going!

    Wayne

  4. I have had borreolsis for about 8 years or longer and didn’t know it. About 5 years ago had igg of west Nile virus. Then got bit by unspecified insect causing inflammation. Lyme expert said I had lyme with 41kda going through Igenex. Noticed scratch looking marks on chest about1year ago and then started with pain and swollen eye and chills very sick at stomach. Allergic to alot of foods and medicine. Liver enzymes and dehydration, low on potassium and sodium. Now I found out I have Candidas. My whole family is getting sick. Can’t eat, I smoke to bring down blood pressure and drink pepsi for circulation problems. No one seems to be able to help me because I have multiple chemical sensitivities . I have this, palsies and now my blood pressure is going higher and panic attacks. Thought I was having heart attack or stroke. Had cig and pepsi along with diazepam. I Aldo have hypothyroidism going hyper and hyper.IT neuro problems and inestinal problems along with adrenal deficiency. Doctors afraid to treat me because of allergies. Had anaphalactoid reactions to meds.and some food. I tried to quit smoking but it seems Luke no blood circulates to my brain. I am slowly trying to detox but making symptoms worse. Don’t know what to do now my family is getting I’ll. Recovered alcoholic for five years. Thee is a lot more can’t eat,I am 56 years old. Do you have any answers? Or suggestions? J

    • Hi Becky,

      Extreme sensitivity to foods, drugs, and other things is very common in people with chronic illness like Lyme disease. You need to see a practitioner who is familiar with this issue, who can help to find out what the cause is, and how to manage your anaphylaxis reactions. There are a variety of ways to go about it, but you need someone to work closely with you so that you do not keep being triggered.

  5. Bill Vickers says:

    Excellent thoughts everyone.

    I have to agree, the BLO and hemobartonella nomenclature was confusing, and I personally know even experienced LLMD’s who may have misunderstood the original attentions. But thank you for Fry labs.

    Dr B’s guidelines probably should be read by more but only as a starting point. At least Dr B has questioned medical boards, questioned our strict adherence to a poorly sensitive antibody lab test for Borrelia (basic lack of understanding by primary care providers and orthopedists), and suggested treatments that were too outside conventional medicine (i.e. long term antibiotics) but we eventually realized they worked and Borrelia is a very slow growing organism that needs longer term treatment, just like mycobacterium species. At least Dr B has lead the change in thinking as has Dr H and Dr S and has not stopped his efforts despite now not practicing. However, like Anthony seems to be suggesting, some people attending ILADS conferences sometimes in their infancy of trying to grasp TBD, might stick too close to the guidelines.
    I particularly like Dr Shaller’s approach and not trying to label this whole TBD “lyme disease.”
    Getting rid of the labcorp test and also renaming this something besides “lyme disease” would probably educate a lot more people in a short period of time.
    In the meantime, possibly the next 5-8 yrs until we have improved tests, a better understanding of the rapidly evolving Babesia and Bartonella including other Borrelia species, which we don’t have commercial available tests, why aren’t more of us using an expansive antimicrobial protocol or using IV Oxidation, (UVB, h202) which is possibly even more board spectrum across protozoa, bacterial, and relapsing viruses or viral confections, and seems to penetrate biofilms better than other agents.
    Surprisingly few people use biofilm agents but also there are a number of biofilm agents available. Hopefully Dr S’s new book will help with that ?

    Thanks all for pushing forward thoughts!

    William E Vickers, MD

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